Curse

Jeff Highwind · Nov 22, 2006, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Ah guys? I use Screaming purely for the high damage. It's 5 damage under Burning and doesn't DEMAND you be in earshot to use it, just to get the bleeding.

On another note, Vah's Hornbow (the 15^50 vamp one) is terrifying with that combo. 200 damage in 3 hits, and it runs faster with Serpent Quickness.

Sha Noran · Nov 22, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

You're right to say it's viable XvArchonvX, but really it comes down to what you're going to do with the rest of your skills. Both combinations could be used with success, but I hold that with a degen build designed to spread degen around the opponents team, Barbed+Poison arrow reigns supreme. If you were going for single target degen, Apply+Screaming+Burning= LOOL.

Silk Weaver · Nov 22, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

This guide is absolutely horrible. Shows a deep lack of knowledge and egotism on the author's part.

gg.

XvArchonvX · Nov 22, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

This guide is absolutely horrible. Shows a deep lack of knowledge and egotism on the author's part.

gg.

Providing an empty negative criticism without anything to back it up could be seen as very egotistical in itself. If there is/are flaws in the guide it would be nice to hear what they are in order to benefit those who read this thread, but if all you came to do is throw a flame and run, then don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

Sir Mad · Nov 22, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Providing an empty negative criticism without anything to back it up could be seen as very egotistical in itself. If there is/are flaws in the guide it would be nice to hear what they are in order to benefit those who read this thread, but if all you came to do is throw a flame and run, then don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

I'm not saying this to defend the person you're quoting, nor to encourage flames but most of these flaws have already been analyzed / criticized in the 16 pages of this thread. Of course with the new campaign, the way you look at some skills may have changed, but, again, most of the critics one could formulate have already been posted and discuted.

To be honnest, I read the guide again when Sha bumped this topic and there are still several parts that made me... erm... cough. I could post a long, detailed critic if requested, but I don't think it would change anything since most of what I could say have already been discuted, except a few skills/builds that may have gained a new respectability with NF.

But of course, it doesn't mean it's the place for harsh comments.

Evilsod · Nov 22, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Sure, you can use something else, but it's really just not worth it. It's not like by sacrificing your range you're dealing "uber zomg wtf pwn" damage. It's like, what, a few additional points of damage? You're better off being alive to finish things off. Of course, you can kite damage should you get targeted, but have fun kiting quad Met Showers off of Dryders, or some of those nice Water hexes the Rain's toss around.

Are you a henchman? A 3 year old kid could kite a Meteor Shower. Just because there are 4 of them either means your a shit ranger (ie. no interrupts) or you've already developed a serious case and death and are therefore unable to move.

As for Rain torments... well you have a point, but with henchman grouping up like they do, if your too busy trying to kite the odd Deep Freeze (since its the only AoE w/ Area effect) then you've already lost. Those things trouble henchman, the only thing to annoy a ranger is Blurred Vision, a skill they seem sometimes afraid to cast anyway.

Quote:

This guide is absolutely horrible. Shows a deep lack of knowledge and egotism on the author's part.

gg.

We know, thats why its not stickied.

XvArchonvX · Nov 22, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

I'm not saying this to defend the person you're quoting, nor to encourage flames but most of these flaws have already been analyzed / criticized in the 16 pages of this thread. Of course with the new campaign, the way you look at some skills may have changed, but, again, most of the critics one could formulate have already been posted and discuted.

To be honnest, I read the guide again when Sha bumped this topic and there are still several parts that made me... erm... cough. I could post a long, detailed critic if requested, but I don't think it would change anything since most of what I could say have already been discuted, except a few skills/builds that may have gained a new respectability with NF.

But of course, it doesn't mean it's the place for harsh comments.

Oh, I don't mean to defend this guide, nor to dispute that the language can be ostentatious. All I would like to see is a reason behind any grievances.

Sha Noran · Nov 23, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

This guide is absolutely horrible. Shows a deep lack of knowledge and egotism on the author's part.

gg.

Since you've got such good credintials! /sarcasm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Are you a henchman? A 3 year old kid could kite a Meteor Shower. Just because there are 4 of them either means your a shit ranger (ie. no interrupts) or you've already developed a serious case and death and are therefore unable to move.

As for Rain torments... well you have a point, but with henchman grouping up like they do, if your too busy trying to kite the odd Deep Freeze (since its the only AoE w/ Area effect) then you've already lost. Those things trouble henchman, the only thing to annoy a ranger is Blurred Vision, a skill they seem sometimes afraid to cast anyway.

Have you ever considered, ever just once, that maybe this guide isn't designed for people like you who already know what's going on? Yes you, or I, or Snipious, or Archon, or most of the other frequent posters here can interrupt all the Meteor Showers and kite out of the occasional one that slips through. Have you ever thought that maybe KewlDood123 is the one I'm trying to help? The one that just got to the Realm of Torment and doesn't know what to do or how to survive? Personally I'd rather have a lesser experianced player wielding a Longbow and staying the hell out of the way of the Agro and taking no damage while still dealing significant amount of hurt. I really stopped caring if you appreciate it or not ages ago, I've had hundreds of people whispering me since I posted this that appreciate it very much, as do the Monks and other people they play with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

the odd Deep Freeze (since its the only AoE w/ Area effect)

Wrong. They also use Ice Spikes. Blurred Vision is AoE too, and can really own an important interrupt. A for effort though Kendel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Quote:
This guide is absolutely horrible. Shows a deep lack of knowledge and egotism on the author's part.

gg.

We know, thats why its not stickied.

I'm really tired of this kind of shit from you in my thread. Seriously, I and everyone else with the patience to keep up with the thread know full well that you think you know better than everyone else in the game. Good for you. Do me a favor and quit shitting in my thread kthx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

To be honnest, I read the guide again when Sha bumped this topic and there are still several parts that made me... erm... cough. I could post a long, detailed critic if requested, but I don't think it would change anything since most of what I could say have already been discuted, except a few skills/builds that may have gained a new respectability with NF.

Such as? Please do post specifics if you could, I just don't have the time to go back and edit out from a year or more ago when I thought something was good that really isn't.

Warpy · Nov 23, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

This has gone straight into a 23 page word document

Thanks very much for the tips and effort. I'm going to read it on the way into work on the bus tomorrow

You must really like the Ranger profession to have spent so much time researching.

Silk Weaver · Nov 23, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Since you've got such good credintials! /sarcasm

What does credentials have to do with anything? The only thing that matters is who is right and who is wrong, not who has more "credintials".

I was not saying I know more about the ranger class, although since we're on topic, I'll say it now-- I know more about the ranger class (and so does a lot of other people) because I certainly think so. However, that is irrelevant, and my point is that your knowledge is bad and that your article misleads begginers and therefore creates a negative impact on them.

Your comments on skills, your view, perspective, is overly narrow, your tone is not neutral or impersonal, it is a bad guide. You miss out many facts, only skates over the surface for some. You do know that Otyugh's cry, for example, is used for the AoE armor bonus, and not to actually trigger uncharmed animals, right? There are many other cases. What about in the Jade sea? Can you think of a better way to stop the spamming ressurrect? Daze is a very effective PvE condition. Beastmasters bad? Oh, even though the fact that a Beastmaster ranger does far more damage than a bow ranger? Bows aren't for damage to start with, yes. What about daggers? Thumpers?

How many rangers here have a second set of stormbound armor before they disallowed armor switching in PvP? I know I do. It still works in PvE, so I don't see why people wouldn't have it now. Concussion Shot?

Oh, I know, because PvE is easy.

Anyway, I'm not going to go for all the flaws, but the example above already shows that you don't know what some skills are used for, and take things for the surface values only. The beastmaster/training dire guide on the forums a while ago is far more thoughtful than this ego stroke of a guide. The fact that you are attempting to defend the article instead of trying to improve show that you're in for the prestige, and not to compile a good guide.

Sir Mad · Nov 23, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Such as? Please do post specifics if you could, I just don't have the time to go back and edit out from a year or more ago when I thought something was good that really isn't.

I skip the build chapter.

Quote:

Otyugh's Cry: This shout might be nice if ALL the wild animals in the game weren't level FIVE. Completely worthless.

The main point of the skill is to add +20 AL to all pets. It's not viable for any non-BM build, but most of the BM skills ain't either (at least the BM skills directly affecting pets). Watch Yourself! may sounds like a better choice, but it's a warrior skill, which implies you gotta sacrifice your secondary for that and eventually attribute points.

Quote:

Revive Animal: Again, looks cool, but... how many Beast Masters that even want their pet alive are you going to play with anyway? And if they want them alive, won't they bring a pet-rez with them themselves? Even if you were running with a whole group of Beast Masters the range on this skill is absolutely horrid (half the range of Heal Area, maybe). Waste of time, especially when you have to have Comfort Animal along anyway to heal your own pet…

The range of Revive is decent, and it's definitely wider than half the range of heal area (actually it's much wider than heal area's range: it affects nearby allies: heal area affects adjacent allies). Remember as well Revive Animal can rez all the pets around with 100% health. The main inconvenients of this skill are the recharge time (20 secs) and the casting time (compared to the almost instant Comfort).

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Oath Shot: This Elite is simply not a very good one for any Ranger playing in a group atmosphere. Assuming you've got your wits about you enough for this skill to hit realiably, you still will not see enough benefit from it to make much use of the increased recharge. There simply are not enough skills that have slow enough recharges that you need to make use of your Elite slot to bring them back.

Already discussed, so.. erm. Have you just nuanced your comment? That's trvial, but I believed it was a bit harsher when I read the guide again a few days ago.

Quote:

Concussion Shot: This skill is simply too conditional to be worth its high Energy cost; if you're really looking for Dazed, look into Broad Head Arrow; despite the arc, you're better off with it than with a skill that requires you to hit an interrupt to achieve the Dazed effect. The biggest problem is that the monsters you want Dazed most are the ones that are most difficult to interrupt anyway.

As you said, the alternative to this skill is BHA. But BHA has 2 inconvenients: 1/ its arc (you're going to miss if the target is moving at all), 2/ it's an elite. I wouldn't take this skill if I don't definitely need it. But under some circumstances, I prefer it to BHA. Unwaking Waters for example: you need to dazze kunny and put conditions on him. With BHA, you only have apply poison left. With concussion shot, you can have a build poison arrow + kindle (or even babed arrows now). That's much more damage. It's also a nice skill to have when you go capping those ele elites

If you're conifdent with interupting, I'd say go with this skill and save your elite slot for something else. If you're not, then BHA is for you.

Quote:

Hunter's Shot: Now this skill is, admittedly, good in PVP because everyone is always running around. Unfortunately, trying to catch a moving enemy to cause bleeding in PvE just isn't worth it. There is a damage bonus, but you're much better off with Penetrating Attack.

With the new AI of both monsters, and henchies/heroes, you're very likely to catch a for moving (your monks kitting, foes deciding to switch to another target after a while when they can't do much damage against you, etc).

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Choking Gas: This skill would be really nice if it lasted just a little bit longer. As it is, you can't interrupt enough skills with it to make it worth it. You could, feasibly, use this combined with Practiced Stance (and that's pretty much the only way to go about it) but you're better off with something else entirely in most cases.

Practiced Stance + Choking Gas is the build to make Gates of Pain easy, over any other interupt builds, since CG is an AoE skill (and you need to interupt several dryders at the same time).

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Frozen Soil: Yet another PVP favorite that is useless in PVE. Trust me, you'll only stop yourself or others on your team from getting rezed.

Generally, yes you're right. However a group of 4 roaring ether, or 2 cavaliers + 2 awakened acolytes are a pain without this skill. So are a few repetitive quests in Cantha (Jade Arena / Duel of Houses) which are popular factions farming places. Dredges in SF are another example. If you're confident in your team, and know you're going to fight groups with more than 2 rezzers, it's going to speed it up (and can actually save your team since you won't waste a long time to kill the rezzers while the other foes are hapilly slaying your monks out of energy after a few minutes fight).

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1. How often in the game are you faced with Lightning Damage? ... Can't remember, can you? Gargoyles in Ascalon maybe?

Mursaats, a few bosses/mobs in Factions missions (including Kunnie

), but still I agree with your comment about AP (and unless a player has enough cash / inventory space to buy all the ranger armors, there are armors that are generally much better).

Quote:

Explorer’s: Explorer’s is a really odd armor set to me. It gives you a small amount of additional bonus health, but that’s it. If you need more health, get a rune, or a mod for your bow, not this armor. It is legitimate to use this set as one to combine a Superior and a Major rune at the same time, but I wouldn't recommend it. Ranger’s are more hungry for Energy than health in most situations, so Druid’s is still a better route.

If a ranger already has other armor sets (such as druid), this one may be interesting, not as a primary armor, but to keep using a sup rune with DP for example. The more DP, the better, as DP are calculated before any HP boost.

XvArchonvX · Nov 23, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I would agree with much of what Sir Mad says, but add a few points:

Unless you are doing FoW with experienced guildmates, Judge's Insight is a unwise decision, especially with recent AI changes. JI is VERY energy intensive and relying on a tank to get enough attention from enemies to give you a decent energy gain is going to leave you with a lot of downtime where you are trying to regen for a 10 energy spell with 2 pips of regen. This is not even taking into account the additional cost of recasting Essence Bond if it gets stripped.

Conjure is a very solid choice after the buffs it has recieved. Not only is it more reliable and less costly, but it also needs less recasting which means more use of barrage and less standing around prepping for it. Throw in Glyph of lesser E and Mark of Rogdort as I suggested earlier and you have AoE burning for the cost of 5 energy and 2 seconds of cast.

In the thumper build, you will likely want to point out that a zealous hammer is highly reccomended as well as give some suggestions for the optional slot. Distracting Blow, Disrupting Lunge and Predatory bond are all good choices for PvE.

Finally I really don't see much credit given to Vamp bow strings. They are by far the best choice for any damage dealing build. The degen is very minimal and easily made up for, even at normal attack rate. The only downside is that one needs to switch to a non-vamp weapon in down time.

Evilsod · Nov 24, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Have you ever considered, ever just once, that maybe this guide isn't designed for people like you who already know what's going on? Yes you, or I, or Snipious, or Archon, or most of the other frequent posters here can interrupt all the Meteor Showers and kite out of the occasional one that slips through. Have you ever thought that maybe KewlDood123 is the one I'm trying to help? The one that just got to the Realm of Torment and doesn't know what to do or how to survive? Personally I'd rather have a lesser experianced player wielding a Longbow and staying the hell out of the way of the Agro and taking no damage while still dealing significant amount of hurt. I really stopped caring if you appreciate it or not ages ago, I've had hundreds of people whispering me since I posted this that appreciate it very much, as do the Monks and other people they play with.

People that don't know whats going on? Even if you've never seen a Terrorweb Dryder before and don't realise that they're all casting Meteor Shower you would move the moment you spotted them over your head. Inexperience isn't an excuse for stupidty. As for them staying back, you do have a point.

Quote:

Wrong. They also use Ice Spikes. Blurred Vision is AoE too, and can really own an important interrupt. A for effort though Kendel.

Perhaps you should read what i put again.

"the odd Deep Freeze (since its the only AoE w/ Area effect)"

Ice Spikes? Blurred Vision? The last time i checked neither are Area. I never said they weren't AoE or that Rain torments didn't have them.

Quote:

I'm really tired of this kind of shit from you in my thread. Seriously, I and everyone else with the patience to keep up with the thread know full well that you think you know better than everyone else in the game. Good for you. Do me a favor and quit shitting in my thread kthx.

Sure, the moment you stop shitting all over decent skills and items because you don't like them. Hell i don't like Conjure barraging, but i'm not gonna create a thread telling everyone not to use it unless they're a retard. Specially as you said above that this guide was aimed at beginners.

Silk Weaver · Nov 24, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

"lol, what they said."

In essence. It's quite misleading for begginer. It's like how if I were in ember light camp and starting a cap group, I'd never allow a wammo into my party, because I know what they're trying to cap.

You're doing the opposite.

Sha Noran · Nov 24, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Warpy: Hope you enjoy the read-through. :-)

Silk Weaver: It's easy for you to say you know more than me when you really don't have any idea who I am or what I know.

Yes, some of my comments are narrow. Would saying that Eviscerate is better than Cleave because of the Deep Wound make all of you Q.Q too? Get real. Sorry, but some skills are just better than others.

And this isn't a PvP guide, it's for PvE. So if you just don't like PvE or think it's terribly easy, then the guide really isn't for you either.

The only point in particular that I'd argue with is your statement that "beastmasters do far more damage than bow Ranger's". No, they don't really.

Sir Mad: In particular I'll go back through and edit some of that. Alot of that was written when, for example, there was no reason for Frozen Soil in PvE, while now there is.

... Revive is silly though, since you should have Comfort anyway. I suppose if you somehow made an insane build with all Beast Masters and found Monks that got the picture that they should be healing the pets as well then... maybe? I just don't really think so.

Archon: I should probably note somewhere that the Essence Bond trick doesn't work as well now as it did, you're right.

Evilsod: Hey, a post with a little less blatant hatred. Awesome!

When you say Area effect I thought you meant AoE in general. Should've said range, that would've been perfectly clear. Either way, though, henchies/heroes ball up so bad that adjacent is almost deadly (/cough Scythe of Chaos).

No, not everything in the guide is perfect, and everyone is going to have different opinions. It's impossible to write a perfect guide for something as broad as a whole class in a game like this without pissing people off. This gets people started and excited about playing Ranger. Maybe after a month they drop the Longbow and start using a Flatbow with RtW and they love it. Great! I'm glad I sparked that interest in Ranger for them, or helped them get into it. You really don't have to just beat on me for not having an absolutely godly guide you know, ffs.

Program Ftw · Nov 24, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Hey, it's nice to see a guide to help out lesser experienced Rangers, I hope it gives them a better insight, however, I disagree with the Concussion Shot and Oath Shot comments, 2 very nice skills there.

Maybe I should do a PvP edition..

Thanks,
Program~

XvArchonvX · Nov 24, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

>.<

sorry, double post.

XvArchonvX · Nov 24, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Silk Weaver: It's easy for you to say you know more than me when you really don't have any idea who I am or what I know.

In all fairness you do have a big guide posted here that is a display of your knowledge on rangers...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Yes, some of my comments are narrow. Would saying that Eviscerate is better than Cleave because of the Deep Wound make all of you Q.Q too? Get real. Sorry, but some skills are just better than others.

Yes there are some skills out there that are pretty useless, but they are very few. I think what is being pointed out is that you have tried to discredit several very legitamate skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

The only point in particular that I'd argue with is your statement that "beastmasters do far more damage than bow Ranger's". No, they don't really.

Gotta disagree with you here. Unless you are build as a barrage ranger and taking on groups of enemies, a beastmaster can very easily outdamage a bow ranger. Not only do BM skills have very high damage bonuses, but the base damage is higher as well (assuming a lvl 20 pet with the same attributes in BM as a bow ranger would use in Marks)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

... Revive is silly though, since you should have Comfort anyway. I suppose if you somehow made an insane build with all Beast Masters and found Monks that got the picture that they should be healing the pets as well then... maybe? I just don't really think so.

I found a LOT of use for this when travelling with another ranger friend when we were leveling up pets since it freed up a skill slot for them. If you are running a pure BM build, then it's not a good choice, but for the casual player that is leveling up a pet, it's a great way to free up space on a partner's skill bar.

Silk Weaver · Nov 24, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Interesting indeed. Arrows, with the exception of B/P with orders, etc, are not known to put out a lot of damage. Even R spike works on SPIKES not pressure, and requires many players and buffs.

Calculate the average damage of bows, then the damage of the bet, see how they compare. Pets deal more damage, but less effective.

Now let's look at these skill for you to spam (no energy problems, use as often as they recharge:

Enraging Lunge (insane damage) + Predator's Pounce (great damage at low cost, and healing) + Disrupting Lunge (Damage and interrupt + Disable)

So you get an interrupt and disable with FIVE recharge as well. Distracting shot is 10, and while it's more accurate, who's to say you can't have both?

Enraging Lunge does +80 damage in any build you spent time thinking about. Conditions can be easily met with Call of Haste and Predatory Bond, + one other attack skill. Assuming you have more than one attack skill, it's logical to assume that there will be recharging attack skills (pred pounce or disrupting) when you activate enraging. Enraging also counts itself.

Enraging WILL deal +80 every hit. Beastmaster's DPS slightly spikey dps that is, plus its constant interrupts and completely ignorance of energy issue, plus you get pretty decent healing with pred bond and pet healing with pred pounce (just icing) makes it far more significant pressure. Bow rangers are great for utility (they also take more skill and are more useful in PvP), but in terms of straight-foward pressure, especially against non kite-happy monsters, a beastmaster is simply superior. Heck, I won halls with it once, heroway.

Also, they are great against mursaat towers, but that's quite specific.

You don't know your stuff if you forget these facts. I'm sorry, go to community page, and check out the pet guide. It's simply maths that a pet deals more damage than bow. bows, barring barrage builds, which I don't like, and dagger/spear builds, which are another category, are not for damage.

Evilsod · Nov 24, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Enraging Lunge (insane damage) + Predator's Pounce (great damage at low cost, and healing) + Disrupting Lunge (Damage and interrupt + Disable)

So you get an interrupt and disable with FIVE recharge as well. Distracting shot is 10, and while it's more accurate, who's to say you can't have both?

The 8 slots you have on your skillbar, thats who.
You don't need 3 attack skills if your running Enraged... hell you can get by with just the 1. Specially as the power of Enraged comes from using long recharge buffs to power it up.
But i'd take Distracting Shot > Disrupting Lunge anyday if i was still using my bow. Its hard enough trying to use Savage Pounce normally, never mind using Disrupting Lunge to just spam in the hopes you hit somet. PvP builds can go along way with that kind of pressure, PvE ones don't.
If anything Brutal Strike is the skill of choice for Enraged builds... +80 off Enraged and +37/74 off Brutal Strike, both spammable. Thats alot of damage. The only down side is you need lots of Expertise to keep it up for any length of time.